HANSALI TAVAREZ: I was completely clueless coming in. The only idea I had was Suits and Succession, and make sure that I’m articulate and that I come prepared with prep notes for every meeting and know exactly what I’m going to say. And when I write emails, I have to not double, triple check them to make sure there’s no grammatical errors.

ELAINY MATA: This is one of the interns I worked with recently at HBR. Her name is Hansali, and she told me that she was really stressed out about a bunch of things that are part of office life. Things that I was stressed out about when I first started, and still get stressed out about today. Basically it all adds up to etiquette. And not knowing those invisible rules can definitely feel overwhelming. Here’s how Maddie, another recent HBR intern, put it.

MAGDELENE JOHNSON: I thought I had to wear a blazer and I felt stupid quite frankly when I came in and I didn’t have one. Even though I was told, “It’s fine, it’s casual.” I’m like, “No,” I feel like that work etiquette is how I’ll be taken seriously.

ELAINY MATA: Welcome to New Here, honest conversations and practical advice to help you play the game called work. I’m Elainy Mata. This week we’re talking about workplace etiquette, all the little rules about how to behave that everyone in your office seems to know, but you. When you’re starting your career, figuring out these rules can be really difficult. It’s not like they’re explained in a manual or an orientation session.

SARAH COOPER: For me, it was really about watching the VP, watching the director. How does your boss behave in a meeting? Everybody’s imitating the person or people above them.

ELAINY MATA: That’s writer and comedian Sarah Cooper talking about how she learned office etiquette in a new job. Before her lip-syncing TikToks went viral during the pandemic, Sarah worked as a designer at places like Yahoo and Google. But she didn’t just crack the office etiquette game, she also had some fun with those rules. In fact, her early comedy is all about office etiquette, like her satirical article called 10 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings or her coloring activity book for “serious business people.”

Today we’ll get Sarah’s take on workplace etiquette. We’ll talk about writing emails, meetings, and when it’s okay to wear comfy pants. She’ll tell us why workplace etiquette is so important if you want to be successful. And which rules she thinks you can break.

Okay, let’s get into it. So let’s talk about the stakes here. We know that some of this might sound silly or absurd in terms of the norms you have to follow, but why do you think etiquette matters at work?

SARAH COOPER: Listen, you just want to get along with people and you want people to want to work with you. That’s all. You want people to be like, “Ooh, Sarah’s going to be in this meeting, it’s going to be a fun one.” You want them to have that feeling. And so it’s really about a feeling. A lot of people focus a lot on the work, those are called hard skills. But soft skills of being able to just be someone that people like to work with is just like … I feel like it’s 80% of it, it’s 80%.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah, I agree. And just be respectful, just be nice to each other. And figure out then what the rules and what the etiquette is. Because I think it changes.

SARAH COOPER: It changes and it’s just dependent on who you’re working with.

ELAINY MATA: So, when it comes to learning this kind of etiquette, where do you start?

SARAH COOPER: I think of being quiet and listening and watching. There’s no manuals any more really. I think my mom back in the day, she was working, she was an HR in the eighties, they used to have these giant manuals, this is how the office works and these are all the things that you do. And they don’t have that anymore because I think honestly because of tech and Google, they set this whole new workplace standard of it’s just cool to work here, so you just be comfortable. You do you kind of thing. And so this you do you just is different for every single office that you’re in.

ELAINY MATA: Okay, so this leads to a more specific question. What are these top things that someone coming in should pay attention to in terms of etiquette?

SARAH COOPER: Well, I worked in design, and so a lot of it was leading with your portfolio. And that is the first thing that gets you in the door is some kind of indication that you have some talent. When people come in, it’s this easygoing, I want to be here but I’m not desperate vibe that you have to put out.

ELAINY MATA: That is so hard by the way-

SARAH COOPER: It is, it is.

ELAINY MATA: I still don’t know what that balance is at all.

SARAH COOPER: Yeah. See, when I joined Google, I had been freelancing and trying to be a standup comedian and I was $20,000 in debt. And so I needed it, but I also wanted to keep doing standup. So, I went in to do my full day of interviews. And that first meeting was in a conference room with eight people, and I was supposed to present my portfolio. And somebody asked me, “So did you receive the proper prep for your presentation?” As if, how would I even know, I don’t even work here, how do I even know what the proper prep is? And so I just made a joke and I was like, “Oh, well, I thought I’m supposed to present it in an interpretive dance.” And everyone just laughed. And it’s like being able to make a little joke, put everyone at ease. So that if you’re on edge, I need this, I need this, I need this, I need to impress everybody here, it’s not the best for you. It makes everyone else feel uncomfortable and not willing to ask you the harder questions because they don’t want to make you start crying. So, you have to do whatever you have to do to get into the zone where you are relaxed and you know your worth and don’t worry about it that much.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah. I like your approach to etiquette because you break this rule of it being you have to be super serious. You’re allowed to joke about how, one, how silly some of these nuances are.

SARAH COOPER: You have to.

ELAINY MATA: But also humor is part of conversation, humor is also just part of interaction and people can joke.

SARAH COOPER: If you can make a little joke, it doesn’t even have to be a great joke, just the fact that you are making an attempt to be lighthearted is enough. And people in corporate environments, they love polite laughter.

ELAINY MATA: What does that mean?

SARAH COOPER: There’s just polite laughter everywhere. Where you’re not actually laughing, but-

ELAINY MATA: Oh my gosh.

SARAH COOPER: You know what I mean? That’s all corporate America is, is polite laughter. So those are things that, yes, in etiquette you will see everybody laughing at a joke that might not be that funny or might be slightly offensive. Maybe don’t laugh at that.

ELAINY MATA: It’s okay not to laugh at bad jokes.

SARAH COOPER: It’s okay not to laugh at bad jokes.

ELAINY MATA: I want to get into meetings because there’s all these different people in a room and how are they going to talk to each other? It becomes higher stakes, you have to perform, you have to show up. Especially if I have to talk.

SARAH COOPER: Oh my gosh, I have to talk.

ELAINY MATA: And actually engage in this meeting. What do I do? What do I do? And I think you make this joke that just nod the entire time so you look like you’re engaged.

SARAH COOPER: Nodding. Pretend to take notes too.

ELAINY MATA: But you should also come prepared for the meeting, know what the meeting’s about.

SARAH COOPER: There is a balance though. There really is. Because sometimes when you come into a meeting and you’re like, I practiced what I was going to say last night. You know what I mean? And then you’re not going with the flow. You’re not responding to the fact that maybe what you thought you were going to say last night actually doesn’t apply anymore. So, there’s a balance. You have enough background, but be able to improvise. Sometimes if you have too much prepared, you stop listening. And listening is number one. You got to listen to what’s being said. I mean, that’s the thing that I noticed about my VP is that when he came into our meetings, he was quiet. He did not speak until he’d heard everything. That quiet confidence is something that obviously I aspire to. But it’s very hard because when there’s silence, I’m the type of person that’s just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

ELAINY MATA: Just break it, break the silence, please.

SARAH COOPER: Yeah. But sometimes you have to be like, no, I’m actually going to wait until a good moment to say something.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah. Okay. So did you have to learn all new work etiquette when you started delving into this entertainment industry versus the corporate?

SARAH COOPER: Yes.

ELAINY MATA: Oh, tell me about it.

SARAH COOPER: Oh my God, there’s so many things. In corporate America, they end their emails with cheers usually or a best or whatever.

ELAINY MATA: Thanks in advance. That’s me.

SARAH COOPER: Thanks in advance. Oh God.

ELAINY MATA: I honestly am trying to find a better closing that doesn’t sound corny, but is also respectful, but-

SARAH COOPER: It’s really hard. But anyway. In tech also, you want to have a very clear subject line, very clear, every single piece of information is in there. But in entertainment, a lot of times there is no subject line and the email ends with xo, xo. It’s so much less formal. It’s also putting your heart out there a little bit. And so that’s the thing that I notice. I feel like the biggest thing that I notice is if you are in tech and you forget someone’s name and you’re like, “I’m sorry, I forgot your name.” People are like, “Oh yeah, no problem, no worries at all.” If you forget a name in entertainment, you’re dead.

ELAINY MATA: You’re dead.

SARAH COOPER: You’re dead. It’s over.

ELAINY MATA: You’re never working in these … You’ll never be on these sets again.

SARAH COOPER: You’ll never work in this town again. I don’t want to see your face. I don’t want to hear your name. You’re done. There’s this woman who I have run into four or five times, and every single time it feels like I’ve never seen her before in my life. And so I say, “Hi, I’m Sarah.” And she’s like, “We’ve met.” We’ve done that four times. The last time I met her, I could tell she just wanted nothing to do with me because I just could never remember that I met her before. And it’s awful. But I feel like that’s part of it is just like in tech you feel like a robot anyway. So people are like, whatever, your name isn’t important. But in entertainment, that proves to everyone that you don’t really care about people. And if you don’t really care about people, nobody wants to work with you.

ELAINY MATA: Wow.

SARAH COOPER: So that was a big thing.

ELAINY MATA: Wow.

SARAH COOPER: And I haven’t learned it yet.

ELAINY MATA: So I want to get into specifics of etiquette. We’re not in person anymore, we’re now talking through Slack or in these little squares, so digital communication is changing. What have you learned about how to handle yourself in those contexts with Slack, video calls, emails even? Because it’s hard, one, it’s hard to read the room through text and you can misinterpret anything. But what have you learned, has been helpful for you?

SARAH COOPER: I think I really like one-on-one digital communication.

ELAINY MATA: Me too.

SARAH COOPER: The best. Yeah. I like when I’m speaking directly to someone and it’s not … In a Slack channel, everybody’s watching. Even if you’re speaking to one person, everyone’s watching that you say that to the person. I don’t know. It’s just very … It’s nice when you know exactly who your audience is. So, the smaller the group, the better. That’s what I think.

ELAINY MATA: I always get more nervous around smaller groups.

SARAH COOPER: Really?

ELAINY MATA: Yeah.

SARAH COOPER: But you said you like one-on-one.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah, so I love one-on-one, but when it becomes three to five-

SARAH COOPER: So, three peoiple?

ELAINY MATA: Three to five, it’s like, argh.

SARAH COOPER: So if there’s one other person here, that would be uncomfortable?

ELAINY MATA: Yeah, a little bit. Because it’s like now I have to read two energies and decipher that and figure that out. That’s hard.

SARAH COOPER: I think it’ll be cool if at the beginning of every meeting there’s an energy set. Somebody sets the vibe and everybody just gets on board.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah. First of all, that sounds very theater. I like that approach because it allows for a less tense … Like, this isn’t as … It allows you to know, okay, it’s not as serious, this is an open discussion, we can actually talk to each other, which means you have freedom.

SARAH COOPER: Yeah. I challenged someone this week to think about a meeting that they have that they absolutely dread. For some reason they dread it all the time. And I want you to go into that meeting and say, “You know what? I dread this meeting every time, and I want us to have an energy reset, so this cannot be a meeting that I dread.” I challenge you.

ELAINY MATA: Let me see if I have any meetings this week so I can do that. What is one corporate etiquette rule that we should get rid of?

SARAH COOPER: I think a lot of times people, everybody’s scared of somebody. And like, oh, don’t upset this person. I’m like, no, we should stop doing that.

ELAINY MATA: I want to add another office etiquette rule that I want to get rid of is not playing music out loud. I want one person in the cubicle or in the office to be the DJ for the day and play music.

SARAH COOPER: You want the fight, you want people to come to blows and fisticuffs. That’s what you want.

ELAINY MATA: It’s like, name me the DJ, bring a DJ to the office. Coming up after the break, Sarah will take your questions and we’ll explore some deeper issues. Like how etiquette intersects with professionalism and code switching. Be right back. Okay, I have listener questions that I’m excited to ask you. And so we reached out to our audience and to our outgoing cohort of interns. I love that word.

SARAH COOPER: Cohort?

ELAINY MATA: Cohort, yeah.

SARAH COOPER: I really hate the word cohort. I hate saying it.

ELAINY MATA: Cohort.

SARAH COOPER: Got to say that, cohort. I feel like it’s getting stuck in my throat when I say cohort.

ELAINY MATA: It is a very harsh word. So our interns asked us questions and our audience asked us questions. Here’s the first one. This one is from Luciana, and the question is submitted through text, so I’m going to read it. When should I have my camera on in remote meetings? And when is it okay to leave it off? For the record, I am mostly an introvert and prefer to work in PJs from home five days a week. But I make an effort to turn on my camera because I don’t want my company to start asking people to go more often to the office to interact.

SARAH COOPER: I think you should have it, if you’re invited to a meeting, you need to have your camera on. Totally get the PJs thing. But throw on a blazer over your PJs and you’re good. I thought I was an introvert for a long time, and I’m just sharing this because it might help some people out there who might feel the same way.

ELAINY MATA: I love that.

SARAH COOPER: But I realized that I was just very scared that I wasn’t good enough. And so I didn’t put myself out there because I looked at everyone else and I said, “They’re all better than me, they all know more than me, they’re all doing better than me, so I’m not going to put myself in this arena because I know I’m already worse than them.” So that’s why I was really holding myself back in a lot of ways and called myself an introvert and said, “Oh, I just need to be alone, I just need to be alone, I just need to be alone.” So I would challenge anybody who thinks that they’re an introvert to think about why and see if maybe there’s a possibility for a path to get out of your shell a little bit.

ELAINY MATA: Okay. The next one comes from Jennifer. She also wrote it for us, so I’m going to read it. How do you figure out your office’s dress code if there isn’t a formal policy?

SARAH COOPER: Ask somebody.

ELAINY MATA: Ask somebody.

SARAH COOPER: Find out, and don’t be afraid to ask.

ELAINY MATA: But who would-

SARAH COOPER: Or just show up in a bikini and if nobody says anything, you’re good.

ELAINY MATA: Then you’re good, and you can just wear that bikini.

SARAH COOPER: You can just wear that.

ELAINY MATA: I remember when our interns started this summer, that was one of the first questions they asked me was what can I wear into the office? And I feel like that’s a question you can … I think that’s a question that it’s okay to ask maybe your manager if you have their contact before-

SARAH COOPER: Yeah, you should definitely ask.

ELAINY MATA: Or maybe something to asks in an interview, what’s the dress code here?

SARAH COOPER: Yeah, what’s the dress code? Especially if you know that you’re a person that has a lot of spice to your style. You know what I mean?

ELAINY MATA: Definitely.

SARAH COOPER: I’ve never had to ask that question, not once in my life.

ELAINY MATA: Really?

SARAH COOPER: Because I’m a very just conservative dresser. I’ve always been conservative. Corporate America, basically you want to hide your bod. You want to just get rid of your body. You just want to not have a body. Don’t refer to your body. Don’t ask about anything. Yeah. So I’ve never really had to ask that question.

ELAINY MATA: But one thing that I’ve learned, and I’ve seen a lot of TikToks on it, it’s like, “Oh, I’m a creative so I can wear these cool outfits to work.” And I’m like, “Yeah, actually we can though,” because that’s just how we express ourselves. For me, it depends on the day. If I’m just going to sit and be in meetings, then I’ll wear comfy pants. There you go. There you go. That’s good. Okay, last one. I want to play you a clip of our former intern, Nicole, and then I have a question. So here’s Nicole.

Nicole: My mom worked a corporate life back in my home country. The things my mom told me before I came to the internship was like, “Oh, dress up really nice.” We bought new clothes. I got my hair done, and it was straight, I pressed it straight. And so when I came in and I realized the work environment was completely different from when my mom was working. And so I felt like when I got here, I was really self-taught, and I had to teach myself a lot of the etiquette.

ELAINY MATA: I’ve always had to deal with this, and this is sounding professional at work. And I’ve always felt really charged about it. First of all, my mom has worked for the state basically my whole entire life, so I’ve had-

SARAH COOPER: Which state?

ELAINY MATA: Massachusetts. Massachusetts. And she worked in the judicial system. So it’s like, okay, great. This is a form of professionalism where you have to be super presentable. And one of the things that I would always learn is, from her who was English is her second language, how to sound professional. So you attract a lot of people that way. Especially these VPs and these higher execs are like, “Oh my gosh, you’re young and you’re talking in this way. Wow.” But I always am code switching. I can’t talk regular, I have to switch it up, and I have to act like I have to give this voice and use rhetoric that is appropriate to the workplace so that I can still convey my message. So I always feel so mmm about sounding professional because it’s like …

SARAH COOPER: Yeah, I’ve worked on my non-regional diction since I was a child. So I was correcting my parents’ accents, their Jamaican accents. I would say, “You’re not saying that right.” So I always wanted to speak as perfectly as possible to the point where I can’t code switch. This is all I have.

ELAINY MATA: Wow.

SARAH COOPER: So you should count yourself lucky that you actually … code switching is actually incredible.

ELAINY MATA: It is incredible.

SARAH COOPER: I say let some of that other side out because that’s what makes you unique. The way you actually talk, the way that you actually present yourself, all that has to come out little by little until you’re running the company. And then you can just be that all the time. That’s the goal.

ELAINY MATA: What advice would you give to this entering workforce about navigating not just the assumptions that colleagues might have about you, just navigating, working with different generations that have a different way of thinking about how to show up at work?

SARAH COOPER: You play by their rules for a little while and then … But these generations were created by marketing companies, they’re just so … I don’t know. They really make these silos of people. And I really don’t like it. We’re all just human beings. And if somebody does something a little bit different, don’t say, “Oh, it’s because you’re Gen Z.” No, that person just does it differently. Gen Z’ers are not a monolith just like any other group. So, I just feel like people need to take it one-on-one, deal with a human being and not a representative of their generation.

ELAINY MATA: I like that. What should you do if you don’t really vibe with your office culture?

SARAH COOPER: God, that’s really tough and really hard. And probably I’m not sure how that gets fixed. But you should look at that. Sometimes you recreate toxic situations that you had in your childhood. And sometimes-

ELAINY MATA: Generational trauma is a real thing.

SARAH COOPER: Generational trauma. And so maybe if you don’t vibe, you need to dig into that. You need to use it as … I’m not saying it’s going to get fixed. I’m not saying you’re not going to have to go find another job. But if there’s something that’s triggering you or something that’s not working, really look at it as an opportunity to find what it is inside you that is responding to that.

ELAINY MATA: I like that. Yeah. Also journal, I think I say this in every single episode, journal.

SARAH COOPER: Please journal, yes.

ELAINY MATA: You are a journal promoter too.

SARAH COOPER: It has saved my life so many times, journaling. It’s actually the reason why I was able to realize that I needed to get out of my marriage was because I looked at my journals and I saw patterns that were not changing. And so the only way to break a pattern is to see the pattern. You know what I mean? So please start journaling, just write anything down, just write everything down.

ELAINY MATA: When you were starting out in your corporate career, what made you feel prepared to navigate office etiquette?

SARAH COOPER: I don’t know if I ever really felt prepared.

ELAINY MATA: That’s fair.

SARAH COOPER: You just jump in there.

ELAINY MATA:

Do you still feel that way? Do you still feel like you’re not prepared and you’re just going day by day?

SARAH COOPER: So I think I used to have this thing of just like, I’m not prepared and I’m scared and I’m going to have to watch everybody and figure it out. And I think it’s evolved to, I’m not prepared but it’s going to be fine. This idea that there’s this preparation that people have that you don’t have, and there’s mistakes you’re going to make. It’s a very immigrant thing, it’s a very female thing. To think that there are these invisible rules that you’re going to be breaking at any moment. And it really puts us in a very small box, it makes us act very small and not want to do anything wrong. And so I would definitely challenge if you’re asking yourself, well, how am I going to be prepared? Just do what you think you should do. And once you get there, know that you belong there.

ELAINY MATA: It does feel like there’s these set of invisible rules that you have to follow. And you’re like, what are they?

SARAH COOPER: What are they?

ELAINY MATA: You won’t know until you trip over one. It’s like, I didn’t even know that was a rule, thank you.

SARAH COOPER: Yeah, yeah. And also realize, please, that … My father had this mentality of one mistake and it’s all over. And so that fear made him not take a lot of chances. And you cannot get ahead without taking chances. So don’t put this in your head that you’re going to make a mistake and it’s all going to be over. You will always get another chance. Always. So take those chances and make those mistakes.

ELAINY MATA: That’s writer and comedian, Sarah Cooper. Her new memoir, Foolish: Tales of Assimilation, Determination, and Humiliation is out now. Next week we’ll be taking a break because breaks are part of good boundaries. By the way, if you missed our episode about boundaries at work, go back and take a listen. When we’re back, we’ll be talking about how to get your first raise. Spoiler alert, it’s not just about negotiation. Check back on October 18th for that episode. Thank you to our listeners who shared their etiquette questions and stories with us. We want to hear more from you, so please keep sending us your stories and questions about work. Our email is newhere.org. And if you send us something, we’ll respond to you and we’ll send you some cool merch that we have. Again, our email is newhere.org. And if you liked what you heard, follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. While you’re there, leave us a review and tell us what you think of the show. Then send the episode to your group chat, Slack or wherever you talk about work. Did you know that Harvard Business Review has more podcasts to help you manage your business and your career? Find them at hbr.org/podcasts or search HBR wherever you listen. This episode is produced by Hannah Bates, Anne Saini, Magdelene Johnson and me, Elainy Mata. Special thanks to Hansali Tavarez, Nicole Colina and all our interns who made time to share their stories and perspectives for this episode. Our editor is Mary Dew, and our engineer is Tina Tobey Mack. Supervising editors are Maureen Hoch and Paige Cohen. Ian Fox manages podcasts at HBR. And our theme song was composed by Graz de Oliviera. You know the rules and so do I.

SARAH COOPER: And so do I.